Would i pay $50 or $75 more - depends. How many riders less we talking about?? 4-5 riders less then no not worth it. But if we are talking a lot less I would gladly pay that and more for good track time. In the past two years I have done 30+ trackdays. I have seen a trackday org give the trackday away for such cheap prices. but they had to overbook the event to make money. Sure was nice to get a cheaper trackday in, but overcrowding sucks ass. Not to mention that many bikes on the track at the same time DOES increase the odds of a crash and down time. Maybe not the orgs fault for the crashes but overbooking the track makes it their fault. The one time that was overbooked we had two crashes at a time. Would be a crash on one section of the track while a 2nd crash on another part of the track. Almost every session in my group was at least 1-3 crashes. Other groups too. LOTS of downtime. Hell it was on thunderbolt, and as we got let out, we do our warmup lap and as we finish the lap they were still letting riders out for their warmup lap. THATS too many damn riders. My two best tracktimes with not many bikes on track was metrics day at beaver run and CSS (superbike school). Sure was more expensive for both days but worth it. I think it was $400 a day for css. School was nice and was 12 riders on my sessions total (including coaches). Never been on thunderbolt with only 12 riders. I came up on them, but a fast pass and lots of open track. It let me have plenty of focus on what i was working on with all open track. Almost like a christmas present. Been on thunderbolt 4 days with CSS in 2009. Of all 4 days there was ONE crash. Thats right one crash in 4 days and that was a small lowside with a another student trying to follow me. I got video if anyone wants to see what a track looks like with no riders around.......
400.00 is to much and 12 riders is to little to make it challanging. For tbolt and lightning I think 250.00 and 25 riders would be just right. I don't know the cost involved with this track and if it would be profitable. But, based on the experience I've had 25 riders on the track was just enough for the intermediate groups.
Personally, I like riding around with other people. I'd say I'd pay a little more for an OPEN track day where there are no sessions.. Or maybe only 2 sessions instead of 3 with 30 minute rotations. That's always nice.
I think it would make sense to those who just want to/need to focus on their turning points and don't want the distraction of other yahoos treating it like a race. For any kind of training, it's idea to have a much smaller grid. Or, for those looking to work out something on their bike like suspension or fuel mapping. I say the later, cause I spent a good 5 track days last year trying to work out mechanical issues, and would have loved to just have some clean track to focus on what I was doing with the bike. Getting passed took my focus away, and put me back into competitive mode
I like the open track days without groups. No pressure to be ready when they say go, plenty of time to come in for adjustments or a drink of water. I always feel like if something happens and i have to fix something or help a friend i am getting fucked out of the track time i paid for. The LED days at mid ohio are the best bang for the buck IMO. Practice days before a race weekend where they consolidate the groups if the crowd is small are kick ass too.
$250 x 25 not event close to paying the bills....See our open track prices...and our August limited day...These are rock bottom prices...How do I know? Other Orgs are yelling at me...
Dutch mentioned in this thread that a rain out weekend where NESBA refunds the members can put a -$30,000 in the club accounting ledger. And NESBA's a non-profit, so the premise there is that no one's trying to make a personal profit gain from the event. Proceeds left over from all the other costs ideally go back into the clubs account to cover the costs for NESBA's two full time employees, operating costs, and rainy day money (no pun in intended here). Clubs like STT are for profit businesses with owners who rely on the profits for all or part of their household income. So are Roy and Monte going to eat $30K for the track, plus all the other overhead they must cover like event insurance liability policies? Keep dreaming. And none of that's unreasonable on their part. If you ran 3 groups at an event and wanted the track limited to 25 riders, you'd soon find out just how cost prohibitive this hobby would be. It might be more like $500/day or more. No matter who you ride with..it's a TRACK DAY..NOT a race. We're all competitive...it's human nature. So because it's not a competition and there's no prize at days end, I kind of feel you have to ride with that in mind. Exercise a little patience once in a while...every lap isn't qualifying or Super Pole. It's about having fun. So if you dial back your Type-A, uber-competitive nature JUST a hair once in a while, everyone has fun and everyone's safe. Many times I came up on another rider, and things got close....do I pass or not? Can I pass safely? If I have to ask...more than likely not..so I back off...let the other rider have the corner and wait for a better situation to get by safely and cleanly. A turn or two later, I'm on my way, the other rider maybe never really notices me..and we're both back to going about our business having fun. And if I may, I believe with NESBA, group advancement is more about making the right decisions on the course during a session than all out speed. One of the comments I got from the Control Rider that moved me to Advanced this year was that he was bumping me because I was working traffic pretty effortlessly...and doing it politely. He said he watched me the whole session pick my way through individuals and groups of riders..sometimes he could tell I was just sitting back and waiting for a better opening..then I'd mozy about my business. If everyone rides cleanly....50 riders on 2-2.5 miles (Barber/Road Atlanta/VIR North/Summit Main/NJMP Thunderbolt) is not a big deal.
Ok here we go Clubs like STT are for profit businesses with owners who rely on the profits for all or part of their household income. So are Roy and Monte going to eat $30K for the track, plus all the other overhead they must cover like event insurance liability policies? Keep dreaming. And none of that's unreasonable on their part. Our membership includes event insurance gold up to the day of event, silver 7 days prior, no surcharges, and no paper filing a simple email or voice mail. As far is is Roy going to give back on a rain event? Yes we did a number of times, no matter if you were a member or non member. Why? it was cold under 50 degrees and it was raining.. Our gold membership carries the BEST flexibility in the track day market, and yes we do have insurance and other liabilities you mentioned. I am not going into an in depth business lesson or the business structure of being for profit or non-profit. It does nothing for the member. Example like you mentioned I start a non profit track day club and collect pay two full time salaries..The business actually benefits tax wise. Or like us a for profit as a sole-proprietor who takes a salary. No difference. If you ran 3 groups at an event and wanted the track limited to 25 riders, you'd soon find out just how cost prohibitive this hobby would be. It might be more like $500/day or more. Our August event at NJMP and our open formats are the rick bottom price on the 2010 event calender. Why? Other orgs are yelling at me...We fully rely on 100% support for our riders which gives us no wiggle room if an event does not sell out... No matter who you ride with..it's a TRACK DAY..NOT a race. We're all competitive...it's human nature. So because it's not a competition and there's no prize at days end, I kind of feel you have to ride with that in mind. Exercise a little patience once in a while...every lap isn't qualifying or Super Pole. It's about having fun. So if you dial back your Type-A, uber-competitive nature JUST a hair once in a while, everyone has fun and everyone's safe. Many times I came up on another rider, and things got close....do I pass or not? Can I pass safely? If I have to ask...more than likely not..so I back off...let the other rider have the corner and wait for a better situation to get by safely and cleanly. A turn or two later, I'm on my way, the other rider maybe never really notices me..and we're both back to going about our business having fun. I AGREE 100%AMEN And if I may, I believe with NESBA, group advancement is more about making the right decisions on the course during a session than all out speed. One of the comments I got from the Control Rider that moved me to Advanced this year was that he was bumping me because I was working traffic pretty effortlessly...and doing it politely. He said he watched me the whole session pick my way through individuals and groups of riders..sometimes he could tell I was just sitting back and waiting for a better opening..then I'd mozy about my business. I agree NESBA is the only advanced group we accept into our expert group without approval from our staff If everyone rides cleanly....50 riders on 2-2.5 miles (Barber/Road Atlanta/VIR North/Summit Main/NJMP Thunderbolt) is not a big deal. NOT AT NJMP I FEEL 40 LIGHTNING, 45 THUNDERBOLT IS MAX, WE ARE RUNNING 35 ON OUR GROUPED DAY. BASED ON PAST EXPERIENCE FOR BOTH TRACKS Had to interject here, as when a statement is made that is unclear or untrue about Absolute Cycle Experience (ACE) or me Roy I want to clear it up...We are a club with the Rider in mind over profits, any one who has ridden with us before or dealt with us before knows that...I also enjoy sharing the same crowd as NESBA and many of our control riders frequent them on our off days. See you all in 2010!
Good post - I like the way Roy thinks and his approach to running a club! Roy = good guy :up: And that's why I ride with his club...
i am not a member of absolute. i signed up for a track day with absolute for veterans day for $99 at thunderbolt. the day before the event it was obvious it wasn't gonna happen cause it was gonna be cold and raining. Roy called as many people as he could to tell them it probably was gonna be canceled and if they didn't show up it was ok he would give them a credit for the day anyway. he didn't get a chance to call everyone (i didn't get the call) so i showed up along with about 15 to 20 others. the event did indeed get canceled and because we were at the track he didn't give us a $99 credit............ instead he gave us a track day credit! yep he told us to pick a 2010 event and sign up for no additional charge. so now i get to do a prime time weekend trackday at thunderbolt for $99. THANKS ROY i don't think any other org would do that.............
Mr. Cadoo, I meant no offense..I was just using your name and Monte's names as examples of individuals who happen to own/run Track Day organizations. The statement was not meant as a disrespectful jab. I meant to place more emphasis on the actual costs involved in holding a track day that I don't think many people take into consideration. The tracks charge a LOT of money for the use of their facilities, PLUS liability insurances, etc. Even if you sell out an event, the profit cannot be all that much at days end. Now on the other side of the spectrum is NESBA, and from my understanding it's more like what I will simplify by calling an "employee owned company". If a date canceled because of weather, like Dec. 13, 2009 @ Road Atlanta, while the club's ledger gets a hit...no one's actual individual budget is debited. So, for an org. run by a person receiving profits from the fees paid by customers/members, the loss is a little more painful any way I look at it. So, hope that clears up...never intended my statement to offend you, Sir. And Furthermore, I just read your web site's Track Day Policy page....and it sounds like you run a pretty decent ship. Wish you all the success in the world.
I wish we had open track days.... Our track day runs 4 grups Begginer Super Street Intermediate Advanced 15 minute sessions are too short... Just when you start to work on your problem areas you have to run back in. Sometimes you can run 2 sessions, but riding with a slower group has it's own set of issues. I really no likey when a group packs behind a slow rider and they wont pass him/her and you get a pack of 20 guys blocking the track... You can only back off so much before you run into the road block again... But, it is what it is... Better than getting weckless tickets or running off the mountain side... Luis
Super Street! LOL that is classic! For a three class system I propose the following class naming conventions be implemented as stanard by all orgs: Ninja Shoulin Monk Chuck Norris
+1 on Roy being a good guy. he's in it for the right reasons, runs a solid day, and is all about his members and their safety. Next season, it's only Nesba and Absolute for me based on how they run their days and the 'advanced' group being a group of riders that you can trust two-deep in a corner.
no problem darrin none taken, you know this virtual world just wanted to state fact thats all...Maybe Ill see ya at one of the NESBA events...Us too need days off to just ride~!:up:
