I'm the CEO of Krämer Motorcycles USA - Ask Me Anything

[cota.kitty]

Is the chassis of the APX-350 MA similar / same to the EVO2 690(R)? Will the APX-350 chassis accept a 690 engine and visa versa?

No, they are very different. The APX chassis is smaller for starters, as the APX is about 90% the size of an EVO2. The 690 engine has a different mounting than the rest of the dirt bike lineup as well. The bikes might look similar, but there isn't a lot of shared hardware.

 

[cota.kitty]

I read that there are plans for a "consumer" version of the APX-350 MA (AKA not selling to only MA licensed talent cup competitors), is this true and if so when will these be available? Also is it true that EVO 2 690S is no longer going to be produced? And finally any plans for a Kramer distributer/dealer in the L.A. area?

Yes. 2025. Yes. Yes.

Is there going to be a "consumer" version? Yes. That's what started us on the APX project, then MotoAmerica came along and that became the priority. A couple weeks ago, I would have told you to expect a 450 model landing in the USA around April 2025. It's become clear in our testing though that the 450 vibrates an unacceptable amount, and we have to reassess what we're doing there and problem-solve that. That means that I don't have a great answer today, but I'll probably have a better one next week.

To be clear, we'll sell a Krämer APX-350 MA to someone who isn't in the MotoAmerica Talent Cup, they're just going to get last dibs on it because we want everyone who is racing in the Talent Cup to be able to get a bike for it.

This year is the last year of the EVO2-690S. It is going away to make room for the consumer version of the APX, which will be around the same price point. The EVO2 S is a great bike, but we sell the "R" version 3-to-1 against it. If you want an EVO2-690S I believe we have three left in stock, and then they'll be gone for good.

I'd love to put a dealer in the LA area. We've talked to a few, and it wasn't the right fit. But, I plan on starting conversations again this off-season. We also looking at Texas, and maybe the Chicago area.

 

[cota.kitty]

A little off topic but I may end up with a 890rr at some point. Would I be looking at a $10k expense when I need a new engine?

For a new one, yes. I would think you'd want to rebuild/refresh your old one though.

 

[eggfooyoung]

The number of requests in my PM's for pictures of my feet was more than I was expecting. You WERA boys keep it weirder than OMRRA.

Oh shit, he knows me!!!

 

[cota.kitty]

That makes sense. That was a concern of mine as well, where less technically oriented teams or those who aren't familiar with the Mectronik ecosystem could be at an inherent disadvantage. Reminiscent of the Japanese MotoGP teams after the move to the spec Marelli electronics that the Italian teams already had hands on experience with. The game of catch up for them is still having ramifications today in GP.

I agree that the ethics of not only portraying, but exemplifying a model of impartiality is key here. I think Alpha Racing does a great job of this in the SuperBike paddock assisting the BMW teams. Teams pay them for race support, but the overall approach could be adapted to work for the Talent Cup to provide support or "office hours".
If you don't already know the leadership at Alpha and want an introduction this weekend I'm happy to make one if you want to pick their brains.

Always want to talk to new people. I love what they're doing with the BMW platform.

This topic definitely needs a think. "Office hours" can get us into trouble pretty quick as well.

 

[cota.kitty]

Also will there be restrictions on how many classes a talent cup rider can race in? Can they race twins cup as well?

Yes? No? Maybe?

I have zero authority or official input on this topic.

 

[sharky nrk]

Like others have said, really cool for you to open the dialog on a public racer forum. Just out of curiosity, is everyone paying cash for their Kramers or does Kramer USA have a finance department? Is it handled by the dealerships that are distributing them?

 

[HPPT]

Financing race bikes? That is not a business I would want to be in.

 

[sharky nrk]

Financing race bikes? That is not a business I would want to be in.

No doubt, terrible financial decision in owing money on something you can send up in flames at any minute, even 100% at someone else's actions. The curiosity is primarily due to effect of minimizing your market as compared to the manufacturers that can and do offer finanical options for those not purchasing outright.

*Edit* - perhaps it doesn't really shrink the market on a track only bike like it would a street legal motorcycle

 

[cota.kitty]

Like others have said, really cool for you to open the dialog on a public racer forum. Just out of curiosity, is everyone paying cash for their Kramers or does Kramer USA have a finance department? Is it handled by the dealerships that are distributing them?

Cash is king. Some dealers and buyers of Krämers have found ways of getting financed, but it's not something we do in Fargo. We've talked to some banks to set up a proper financing option for customers, but what's hard is that the bikes don't have a title to secure against, just an MSO.

 

[assjuice cyrus]

Also will there be restrictions on how many classes a talent cup rider can race in? Can they race twins cup as well?

I know your mind is going a million miles at once, and as bad as I want to mess with you I wont cause I know what your trying to figure out. But history shows that Moto A has always allowed riders to ride in multiple classes. There's JR cup riders also racing twins on the same weekend, Just as you will be racing a Kramer and twin on the same weekend.

 

[Robby-Bobby]

@cota.kitty off topic but related to the 450's, on the mile we also noticed more vibrations (more rpm sustained longer) and found that rubbetr mounted bars, kinda like MX setups worked great to reduce vibes. I know yall got smart fuckers working on the bikes, but if you havent tried that, do so.

 

[voss555]

I know your mind is going a million miles at once, and as bad as I want to mess with you I wont cause I know what your trying to figure out. But history shows that Moto A has always allowed riders to ride in multiple classes. There's JR cup riders also racing twins on the same weekend, Just as you will be racing a Kramer and twin on the same weekend.

I know, just didn't know if they were going to change it since it's called "Talent Cup" now and all the road to MotoGP stuff. Also at least if you listen to the MotoA commentators there is some weird story line where they talk about the Junior Cup riders like its their first time on the track or when someone moves up to twins or supersport like they haven't been riding those bikes for years already.

 

[rohorn]

An 890 racing ECU suite & control system would be most excellent - I don't want to wait for Solo Engineering to bring one out unless I have to.

My 890 engine isn't going in a stock frame - stock street ECU/harness/display/etc... won't work...

Would buy that right now.......

Your dealer in nearby (By rural standards) Colorado Springs was very cool - he knew I wasn't buying one but was glad to talk about it and show it off.

Love the direction Kramer is going - glad to see a company that loves the sport.

 

[cota.kitty]

@cota.kitty off topic but related to the 450's, on the mile we also noticed more vibrations (more rpm sustained longer) and found that rubbetr mounted bars, kinda like MX setups worked great to reduce vibes. I know yall got smart fuckers working on the bikes, but if you havent tried that, do so.

Even tube thickness on the bars makes a big impact. There's a lot to do, and only trial and error to do it by. That's why we need to have a discussion on timelines and what we're going to do about it.

 

[cota.kitty]

An 890 racing ECU suite & control system would be most excellent - I don't want to wait for Solo Engineering to bring one out unless I have to.

My 890 engine isn't going in a stock frame - stock street ECU/harness/display/etc... won't work...

Would buy that right now.......

Your dealer in nearby (By rural standards) Colorado Springs was very cool - he knew I wasn't buying one but was glad to talk about it and show it off.

Love the direction Kramer is going - glad to see a company that loves the sport.

We have full upgrade kits, with motor, harness, and ECU. Shoot me a PM and we can discuss further. I'd want to loop Joe in on that conversation as well.

 

[Super Dave]

Thanks for getting into the batter's box to let us throw balls!

As an old guy of the sport I find myself excited, disappointed, and curiously understanding of the predicament.

While the bike is a boat anchor to my 125GP bike and more expensive that available Honda Moto3 production bikes, Honda didn't step up to the game of trying to provide for the MA series (that I know of). Is there an expectation that some of the cost of the Krämer APX-350 MA is for the homologation program to MA on addition to contingency, support at MA events?

Given GP bike status, there's a reasonable expectation of regular engine maintenance. Have any expectations been stated about top end or bottom end rebuilds? Titanium valves?

I appreciate your three year contract, and I hope you can get another as then maybe there will be a plethora of these bikes circulating through an up and coming future MA paddock and maybe even within club level racing with Moto3/125GP machines. With non MA racing opportunities, will the non MA Krämer APX-350 be less expensive because of no support, homologation fees, contingency?

 

[cota.kitty]

Thanks for getting into the batter's box to let us throw balls!

As an old guy of the sport I find myself excited, disappointed, and curiously understanding of the predicament.

While the bike is a boat anchor to my 125GP bike and more expensive that available Honda Moto3 production bikes, Honda didn't step up to the game of trying to provide for the MA series (that I know of). Is there an expectation that some of the cost of the Krämer APX-350 MA is for the homologation program to MA on addition to contingency, support at MA events?

Given GP bike status, there's a reasonable expectation of regular engine maintenance. Have any expectations been stated about top end or bottom end rebuilds? Titanium valves?

I appreciate your three year contract, and I hope you can get another as then maybe there will be a plethora of these bikes circulating through an up and coming future MA paddock and maybe even within club level racing with Moto3/125GP machines. With non MA racing opportunities, will the non MA Krämer APX-350 be less expensive because of no support, homologation fees, contingency?

There's a bit to unpack here, so apologies for the tome I'm about to write.

First off, Krämer didn't pay MotoAmerica to be the spec-bike for Talent Cup. The price of the machine doesn't include any homologation fees or payouts. Our margin is actually pretty thin on the APX-350 MA, and the reality is this price is what it costs to build a bike of this caliber from a company of our size.

When I hear people talk about how expensive the Krämer APX-350 MA is against machines from other brands, I'm not sure what they're talking about. The Honda NSF250R is £15,199 (~$20,000 USD) in the UK, and over 16,000 euros ($17,600) in Europe. When the NSF250R was brought into the USA by American Honda in 2011, it was $28,600 USD.

I think people see the $13,700 price from Iconic and Rising Sun and think that's a realistic price for a Honda NSF250R in the USA, but it's not.

Stewart at Rising Sun has been doing the Lord's work for small-displacement riders by importing the NSF250R for a while, and charging $17,500 a pop for it. I just got the story yesterday from Abhi at Iconic on how they ended up with NSF250R machines, and it's kind of humorous. Not my story to tell, but they've been unloading bikes for the last 18 months, and have 4 left. I doubt Iconic will ever get more again. When those four are gone, what do you think Rising Sun is going to do? So, what's the real price in the USA for a gray market NSF250R? $17,500 if you ask me.

That's cheaper than our $22,495 MSRP sure, but that's from an unofficial channel, pre-orders only, no need to hedge on currency exchange (have you seen what the yen has done in the past two years??!) no time-value of money, no official support, minimal parts/spares investment (this isn't a dig at either operation, but when you're an OEM you have to carry considerably more parts inventory than say a dealer-level operation).

Sourcing the Honda NSF250R from anyone other than American Honda is just a no-go on so many levels that it's not a reasonable consideration to talk about, and it's been almost 15 years since American Honda wanted to be in the NSF business. That's just the reality of the American market, which is very different from Europe and Asia, especially when it comes to Honda and what they tend to offer.

To your next point about maintenance, one of the real values of the Krämer APX-350 MA formula is that it is a GP chassis, but we use a production motor with stock internals. So, our maintenance schedule isn't that different from what KTM recommends for the KTM 350 EXC-F dirt bike. There's no Ti in this motor to replace. Any KTM dealer can service these motors.

Another thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that the Krämer APX-350 MA is class legal in every club rulebook that I've read. We didn't build the APX-350 MA for club racers, but we've already had interest from guys that want all the bells and whistles of the MA-spec for their amateur programs. We will have a spec of the APX available for track day and club racers, and it will be at a cheaper price point, but not because of homologation, fees, or anything else. It'll be cheaper because it won't have all the cool expensive stuff that's on the APX-350 MA.

 

[Senna]

There's a bit to unpack here, so apologies for the tome I'm about to write.

First off, Krämer didn't pay MotoAmerica to be the spec-bike for Talent Cup. The price of the machine doesn't include any homologation fees or payouts. Our margin is actually pretty thin on the APX-350 MA, and the reality is this price is what it costs to build a bike of this caliber from a company of our size.

When I hear people talk about how expensive the Krämer APX-350 MA is against machines from other brands, I'm not sure what they're talking about. The Honda NSF250R is £15,199 (~$20,000 USD) in the UK, and over 16,000 euros ($17,600) in Europe. When the NSF250R was brought into the USA by American Honda in 2011, it was $28,600 USD.

I think people see the $13,700 price from Iconic and Rising Sun and think that's a realistic price for a Honda NSF250R in the USA, but it's not.

Stewart at Rising Sun has been doing the Lord's work for small-displacement riders by importing the NSF250R for a while, and charging $17,500 a pop for it. I just got the story yesterday from Abhi at Iconic on how they ended up with NSF250R machines, and it's kind of humorous. Not my story to tell, but they've been unloading bikes for the last 18 months, and have 4 left. I doubt Iconic will ever get more again. When those four are gone, what do you think Rising Sun is going to do? So, what's the real price in the USA for a gray market NSF250R? $17,500 if you ask me.

That's cheaper than our $22,495 MSRP sure, but that's from an unofficial channel, pre-orders only, no need to hedge on currency exchange (have you seen what the yen has done in the past two years??!) no time-value of money, no official support, minimal parts/spares investment (this isn't a dig at either operation, but when you're an OEM you have to carry considerably more parts inventory than say a dealer-level operation).

Sourcing the Honda NSF250R from anyone other than American Honda is just a no-go on so many levels that it's not a reasonable consideration to talk about, and it's been almost 15 years since American Honda wanted to be in the NSF business. That's just the reality of the American market, which is very different from Europe and Asia, especially when it comes to Honda and what they tend to offer.

To your next point about maintenance, one of the real values of the Krämer APX-350 MA formula is that it is a GP chassis, but we use a production motor with stock internals. So, our maintenance schedule isn't that different from what KTM recommends for the KTM 350 EXC-F dirt bike. There's no Ti in this motor to replace. Any KTM dealer can service these motors.

Another thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that the Krämer APX-350 MA is class legal in every club rulebook that I've read. We didn't build the APX-350 MA for club racers, but we've already had interest from guys that want all the bells and whistles of the MA-spec for their amateur programs. We will have a spec of the APX available for track day and club racers, and it will be at a cheaper price point, but not because of homologation, fees, or anything else. It'll be cheaper because it won't have all the cool expensive stuff that's on the APX-350 MA.

Very fair response. It would be really cool to see the basic bitch APX-350 catch on in club racing as a potential “end game” class for ULW guys like me.

 

[voss555]

Are the wheels OEM KTM? If so from which model? Thanks!