I need a new handgun...lets talk guns today. :D

While everyone jumped to conlusions regarding the airman's death before any meaningful details we're released, to say that all UDs have been debunked is just completely untrue. So many videos out there showing UDs with no trigger pull. My take is that the problem is a combination of factors. Shit tolerances, shit design, holster tolerences. The manual external safety only blocks the trigger bar. When the sear drops (loses contact with the striker lug is a better description) without a trigger pull due to the tolerance issues (Sig actually admitted that little nugget), the sear actually takes the internal safetly lever along for the ride, so the striker then has a free path to the primer. I haven't seen anyone talking about that last point. I have first hand experience with Sig's gaslighting, failure to stand behind their products, failure to honor their warranties. They're going to die on this hill of bullshit, and at this point, good riddence.

 

I am as close to a gunsmith as I am a Moto GP level electronics tuner but from what I’ve seen and read this tracks. I was shopping the 320’s hard a few years ago when I fell intao the PDP platform…damn glad I did.

 

Interesting approach.
So, OA Defense is Sig?

 

Now and again the GunTubers drop a hint..and Dave aka "HumbleMarksman" I think drops one here in the first 20 seconds or so of his review: https://forums.13x.com/index.php?threads/official-youtube-video-thread.215117/page-1230#post-6306890

I don't think Sig actually designed and built a new gun...I think they wanted into the 2011 market so they bought their way in, put their logos on it and called it a Sig P211. Do I have concrete proof? No...just a hunch based on what Dave kind of hints at here.

Doesn't matter to me. I'm not getting one. 2011's are THE HOTNESS in handguns these days..and deservedly so. They're absolutely fantastic. I have almost completed my wish list. Nothing else out there really grabs my eye as a "gotta have". Now I'm busy enjoying the
hell out of them.

 

Two separate guns.
OA Defense 2311 ships with Magpul made magazines of the Sig P320 design.
Sig now has the P211-GTO which also uses P320 design magazines - (With the added benefit of sounding like it's named after a Ferrari )

 

Crossed post paths probably by seconds...LOL.

 

No idea if the OA Defense design influenced the Sig or not, but they do LOOK similar.
This one looks nice, I'm thinking about one as I don't have any problem with the minor "issues" that Humble Marksman points out. ( Compensator maintenance, compliance with competition rules, lack of holsters for a new pistol )

 

Well, if you buy one…report back. We’ll be interested in your experience.

The Sig would not be my choice at that price point.

 

"Honest Outlaw" claims that the Sig P211 might be the 'softest' shooting gun he's ever shot....And he is a 2011 guy and has all the big $ 2011's. Says he would take it over a comparably priced Staccato? FWIW

 

The only Staccato you can get in that price point is a C2 or a blemished model. Brownells web site said $2396 for the P211 GTO. Staccatos Basement base price is like $2500-2599.

My p4.5 HD premier package is $3300 out the door.

So Chris isn’t fibbing.

 

I am not an Sig fanboy nor do I own a 320 so my request is strictly for learning purposes. I have not seen one clear video of the newer 320s firing with no contact. I did see plenty of videos showing the early models couldn’t pass the drop test. Would you please share some links to these “so many videos” .
Thanks

 

I'm not neurotic enough to keep track of the urls for all of the ones I've seen, and linking in this thread is Verboten. Go to The Youtubes and search for "Protraband The P320 is safe and effective". Starting at the 2:19 mark, there are 3 examples showing the guns discharging with fingers VERY clearly off the trigger. The first one (edit- the guy with the jacket on) is arguable because of the guy's reholstering and a possible snag, but the other two are plain as day. There are numerous others out there, easily found using Google, several showing holstered 320s going off while hands aren't even near the holster.

 

For what it's worth, I think Wyoming Gun Project video is bulshit, because he does take up the slack, AKA pulling the damn trigger. That's a distraction from the real issues, like the fact that moving the trigger from it's resting position (not the wall), in some cases less than 1-2mm, raises the internal saftey lever, disegaging the striker block. Add in a little holster flex that nudges the trigger, and bingo, you have a round going through your body.

But the real issue is the striker leg to sear engagement, shit tolerances with those two components, and slide to frame slop that allows the striker leg and sear to get even farther apart. Combine that with a fully cocked striker, an internal safetly lever that unintentionally moves with the sear, and a poorly designed striker block, and here we are.

 

I’ve formed the opinion that the Wyoming videos are one plausible explanation of the sequence of events leading to the NDs.

P320 is holstered

Holster makes slight contact with trigger moving it rearward but not far enough to release the sear.

Pistol is jostled in the holster (several videos show this) and the purported tolerance stack-up issues results in the sear disconnecting from the striker leading to a detonation.

As with all things mechanical, it’s possible there are other causes but this seems to be a logical sequence.

Staying with this thought, there’s another YouTuber who was able to demonstrate the sear release on several other pistol brands following the same technique employed by Wyoming. The difference between the other service pistols tested is that they have a trigger safety dingus to prevent movement of the trigger in the event of incidental contact.

If you have any other service pistol and there is incidental holster contact with the trigger the trigger safety dingus prevents movement making it a non-event.

As Billy Joel once said: I may be right, I may be crazy.

 

I’ve thought about this one, even made some sketches to get it right in my geeky engineering brain. The scenario you layed out is certainly near the top of my list of probable scenarios. Having been involved in a fair bit of incident recreation on the automobile side, my brain kind of thinks that way anyway. I’ll keep the rest of my theories to myself at the moment as I don’t have enough info or time to vet them out.

 

I thought my cheapo tx22 was a nightmare……..but this sig stuff hurts my head

 

Thanks for the reply. I looked extensively before I asked you to provide a link. I still haven’t seen a 320 go off while no contact was involved but I do agree there is most likely a combination of things that are making a very small percentage of those firearms going off. I wouldn’t run out to buy one and I also wouldn’t kick one off the range. My takeaway from the video you suggested was the very very poor firearm handling I saw by the police during the retrieval of the questionable firearms. Absolutely crazy. Again thanks for the reply and yeah Sig should be diving deeper into this.

 

Oh, so you are looking for no contact with the gun, holster, or movement on a belt, rather than uncommanded discharges with no trigger pull? I haven't seen any of those either. But actual uncommanded discharges with no trigger pull, yes, plenty of videos, and two to three in just the video I mentioned alone.

 

2011 Fan Boy here....I have actually seen and touched a Sig P211 out in the wild. Went to a LGS to find some parts I needed and stumbled upon one, their first one, in the display case. It was also in with a Staccato 4.5.

Both fully ambi
Both Series 80 triggers
- The Sig has a flat trigger shoe which I prefer
- The P4's have the Staccato curved trigger, which I could live with, but Red Dirt is coming out with a flat trigger shoe/bow for it..so $75 and some tool/tinker time fixes that for me.
P4 entry package is 2700
P211 is 2499 as shown. (I can post photos of it if someone wants to see it).

They both check all the boxes. It felt like the P211's slide had a lighter spring (it comes with a heavier spring if you want to swap for whatever reason).
If you have a shit ton of 320 mags, buy the Sig...if you have a shit ton of Glock mags...but the P4/4.5.

My ONLY reservation is the internals. My question is...does the Sig have any MIM parts in it? If it does....get the Staccato P4/4.5. I feel for what these companies want for 2011's, the Customer should be getting all
machined real metal parts.

If you buy one of them the other will not push the "I gotta have that one too" button for you.

 

That is why I do not believe in guns, forgive me I have to get back to eating my tastes like bacon over a sawdust tastes like egg contraption.

pistol red dots. So couple nights ago while in my backyard I pulled out my 365xl to use the flashlight - note in my heavily wooded backyard. took a peek through be red dot and was just a blurry mess. This time it was sorry emitter.
This particular gun is my “don’t mind if it gets banged around a bit” carry gun. Technically iron sights could be used that are still on it in a pinch but as we know, avoid being in a pinch and be prepared.
Have a Trijicon on one of my other 365’s and like it but honestly when working the 507 just works better for me because to get on target. I’ve tried covers etc but think what this comes down to is wrong tool or wrong model of tool for the environment. I’m not going to change how I handle the gun - opinions? As in opinions like normal people outside the bbs would give. I don’t want to dump too much more into this one but item of note is red dot is much better for when I’d likely use it- crap lighting. I’m being an ask-hole here I think cause pretty well kkkw the answer